Discussion: USARA Nats

This will be my first time missing USARA Nats in several years so here are my "unbiased" predictions for the top 15 teams, of which I am at least somewhat familiar with. I didn't want to go any deeper for fear of leaving too many teams off.

The field doesn't seem quite as strong as it was last year with a few teams/racers missing but it is still deep. I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Top 9 teams on my list finished on the podium.

If you think I ranked you too low (or unranked) go out and prove me wrong. If my predictions are incorrect I promise not to make any more predictions for an entire year.


1 DartNuun
Top level athletes with consistent navigation and results, as long as it is not too hot.

2 Tecnu
Kyle has turned into one of the world's top racers. Kyle will have to step into the navigator role again this year (at which he is no slouch). Injuries have plagued Tecnu.

3 Untamed
No Dave L this year but these 3 are super strong and can get the job done. They also will be racing for Chad.

4 Odyssey Masters
Always a threat. Mark is one of the most experienced racers and navigators in the country but coming off some sickness (nothing new).

5 AAS
Earl's first and Dan's second Nationals will still be a learning experience but watch out for a strong performance with Kristin as their teammate.

6 Alpine Shop
Emily has really made these guys, who are excellent navigators and racers, a force to reckon with. This may be their year for a podium or maybe the steep terrain slow them down a bit.

7 Bushwhacker
Consistent navigators and racers.

8 Rev3 Masters
Joe may be the best navigator in the race and these guys have a lot of experience racing together.

9 Rev3
Good athletes that can put in a strong result at any race. May tag along with their Masters team.

10 GOALS
Strong with lots of experience and good strategy but Abby is still regaining fitness after a year of not racing.

11 CP0
Haven't raced consistently lately but always a potential threat. Peter has a lot of experience as a navigator.

12 GOALS 2
Jason is an excellent racer that can push his team to a good result. Jill is getting stronger and Jim has seen some good results this year as well.

13/14MRA 1/2
They have had a really strong season but I haven't seen them race in person this year and don't know them that well.

15 Odyssey 2
Andy is an experienced navigator and strong racer. JP has also finished high before but I don't know the female.

Also, race emails indicated that Pinnacle would be providing tracking, blogging, photo and video posting throughout the entire event. I don't see any sign of this on the USARA or Pinnacle website yet but imagine it will become available tomorrow or Friday.

Not live, but this was posted on FB today: http://www.usaranationals.com/tracking.aspx

Thanks for the predictions, mayer22. As a regional and west coast racer I only know a few east coast racers and teams, so the insights are helpful. Looking forward to following this one, since there will be some great competition for the podium.

We can take care of you not knowing MRA very well. Next race that we're both racing, we're going to sit with you at the post race meal. :)

Nice! Looking forward to it.

DART!

RVG and Hayes still need their National Champion trophies, emroidered robes and lounge entry ID cards.

Membership has its privileges.

Wonder if any racers will have time to post instructions, or dare I ask, maps? Love following along Bash/Getawaystix style. They spoil us.

Rogaine format. No maps til 6am.

Oh man. Well, I will just yell at all the trackers good job!

they need to change the name from adventure race nationals
to multisport orienteering nationals. shame. lame. maybe one day they'll switch to p2p with high stakes nav choices.

I also was told there is a Score-O on the course where different controls are worth different point values with a max value of 100 which is worth 10 controls in the race (not sure if that is the exact explanation).

I heard that the RD didn't think the course would be cleared but the website says that "he didn't expect MANY teams to clear this physically grueling course." I know for the last 7 years the winning team has cleared the course (and assume every time before then). Might add a lot of strategy if the course cannot be cleared. Alpine Shop always seems to make the smart decisions on unclearable courses (see CPT Champs 2013). I hope a few teams clear it (we all know Sean C's view on this).

surprise! no way to follow the "race" because of this sissy orienteering format. This optional CP, any order, orienteering format is a CANCER to our sport. This is not real AR.

when we won USARA Nationals in 2008, we (DART) crossed the finish line at breakfast time, broad daylight, with race org people just walking around. Might have been one high five. We didn't even know we won until later. What other sport has this f'd up "championship race" "finish line"? Zero. None do. Because it is a joke.

In 2010, we (kyle/mari & I) crossed the finish line thinking we won, but Gnomes beat us by 6 minutes by out-navigating us in the last couple miles. At least that was a race in the last half hour to the finish! Also we chose not to protest a course rule/design/interpretion snafu that would have given us a (very lame) way to win. At most of these rogaine formats I have seen public and "behind the scenes" protests so teams can improve their "ranking".

I hope one day the sport will return to actual racing. Sequential, only manadatory CPs with intelligent course design over long distances with high-stakes NAVIGATION risks/decisions built in. It will happen. This pansy multisport rogaine format will (officially) die first, then we will see a return to real Adventure Racing. The best navigating athletes will still win. And they will know it at the finish line!!!!!!

Either style is fun for the racers, but it sucks to "watch." And, agreed, it doesn't belong at a championship at any level.

Sean, I realize I don't know you, but if you're truly this passionate about the sport, you should put together a race of your own. Show the world what Real Adventure Racing means to you, and maybe you'll inspire other RD's to follow suit.

And besides, we all know Apline Shop is going to win.

Hopefully.

Looks like Alpine Shop, CP0, and OAR2 took a gamble and skipped the 2 far south paddle CPs. Those may have been the least bang for your buck in the entire race but if the top teams clear the course those teams will be SOL. Tecnu is only 1 hour behind Alpine Shop which is the farthest top team on the course. CPO/Odyssey are halfway b/w. Dart is 20 min back of Tecnu. Untamed another 20 min back. AAS and Bushwhacker another 20min back. Both Rev3 teams and both GOALS teams another 20 mins back. MRA1 is still on the O Course so hard to tell how far back they are.

That covers my entire Top 15 except MRA2 who skipped the far south paddle CPs and has already been passed by teams who didn't. I don't think anyone else has broken into that yet but hard to tell at this point. NSPIRE, Garret College and Quest got all the points and aren't far behind.

To me it looks to me like a few of the top teams will clear the course but it is still hard to tell how hard/long the Score-O will be. The night will slow teams down but they will have 7 hours of daylight tomorrow morning.

thanks for the update.

The tracking page is making me a little nuts. I select the handful of teams I am watching to get a clearer view and darnit if it doesn't refresh all! I don't remember this circumstance in the past. Advice welcome.

I agree that the refresh is annoying.

Looks like Tecnu got held up for some reason at CP 21. Dart passed them and looks to be 90 min ahead but not sure if dart got CP26. They are currently on there way to the Score O. Tecnu is either lost or going the long way to CP 26. Bushwhacker and Untamed look to be 20-30 min behind Tecnu.

AAS made a poor route choice on the northern points and fell behind Bushwhacker and Rev3. Rev3 looks to be 30min behind BW and AAS 30 min behind Rev3.

GOALS 2 (and maybe GOALS 1 who seems to have lost their tracker), Odyssey Masters, and Rev3 Masters aren't far behind.

CP0 and Alpine Shop are traveling close together on the Score-O but did not collect the two points on the paddle. I'm guessing they are 60 min ahead of Dart who again remember looks like they skipped 26. I hope they didn't accidentally forget to get it. All the other teams mentioned seem to be clearing the course (so far).

I see that nothing has changed here. Sean is still complaining about USARA multi-sport rogaine championships

BIG NEWS. Looks like both tecnu and Dart have made mistakes. Looks like Dart either forgot to get CP21 or forgot to punch. They went back got it and then went to CP 26. They are riding alongside Untamed and Rev 3 to the Score O. Tecnu hasn't updated in a while but I imagine they are nearby as well. Looks like the did miss the turn for CP 25 as I suspected. Bushwahacker is in first almost at the Score O about 10 min up the road.

AAS hasn't updated in a while but is probably about 30 min back of the main pack with GOALS2 and Odyssey about 30-60 min behind them.

Correction from above Rev3 Master is doing the bike loop in the opposite direction. Not a bad idea from my point of view. If it comes down to dropping points the Northern points will be an easy and effective cluster to drop. GOALS 1 has done the same thing. A very good strategy if you are not sure you can clear the course.

Alpine Shop and CP0 are still on the Score O. Alpine Shop is about 2.5 hours ahead of Bushwhacker but is missing the 2 paddle points.

Alpine shop seems to have a history of making prescient race decisions that work out well for them. I'm looking forward to a TA with some real times and data points. This guessing is frustrating.

Sean? You mean Comrade Yuri?

According to Tecnu's Doug's Facebook, it stands with Bushwacker, then Untamed and Dart nuun 30 minutes back. Then Rev3. And then Tecnu. This is using the transition times at the start of the O course I'm guessing.

Now it seems its a Tecnu, Bushwhacker, Dart nuun race. Did I read correctly that Kyle thought a 4a finish was possible? As predicted, the temps dropped, and rain ensued--that guilted me out of bed at 5a to send along good vibes to my peeps. And, I have to give a shout out to my Michigan folks! WAR, MRA 1 and 2, Team Fish, and Untamed! Way to go guys!

CP0 and Alpine Shop are almost back to the lake. They are missing 2 CPs and are about 90 min ahead of Bushwhacker. Tecnu looks to be about 10 min behind them. Untamed is at the TA after the Score O. And assuming the don't hang out too long which I know they won't want to they are 10 min further back.

Rev 3 made a mistake at the end of the Score O going up the wrong spur but have recovered and it looks like they will be at the TA in a few minutes. From their track it looks like they might have dropped a CP on the Score O. I don't know why they would at this point given as it looks like they can finish the course. I am going to assume they didn't but we'll see.

Dart is right behind Rev3 getting the last 2 Score O CPs. Odyssey Masters is a little farther back on the Score O with AAS just behind them on there way back to the TA as well. MRA just got the farthest Score O CP and GOALS2 is on their way to it.

Rev3, GOALS, and Quest are still going backwards and are on their way to the far north points in close vicinity. I don't know where that places them but my guess is its in the vicinity of where AAS is.

It is looking like Alpine Shop and CP0 will finish early without all the CPs. That assumes they can't go back and get the CPs now. I am sure if they did it would at least have to be on boats. Which is more reason to believe they can't. That will likely be a bad feeling when they finish. It was a risky move and it looks like this time it may have not worked out for them. We will have to wait and see though.

Thanks for the updates/analysis, mayer22.

yeah thanks Mayer22. great updates!

If you don't follow Tecnu's FB page, it seems Tecnu pulled ahead of Bushwacker, he says 30 minutes, and they are transitioning to the final leg. I'll still wait till the end though. Never know what the details of a race are till the the finish.

All the teams have left the Score O. Not sure how the scoring on the Score O worked either. I don't know if they were allowed to skip 1 or 2 CPs. It looked like some of the front teams might have. Tecnu being one of them.

Alpine Shop and CP0 are clearing the 3 final CPs at WISP.

Quest, Rev3, and GOALS are all trying to get a few points up north before heading back.

Tecnu has regained the lead and just started on the last 3 CPs. Bushwhacker is about to return to WISP. Untamed should be arriving soon as well. Looks like Tecnu will maintain the lead without a mistake but anything could happen.

Rev3 is about 20 min back of them and Odyssey is another 20 back. GOALS and AAS are right behind but it looks like they may have skipped some points on the Score O to leave early. In which case Alpine Shop and CP0 may have an advantage over them.

Right now it looks like we may only see 4 teams clear the course, if that. Tecnu, Bushwhacker, Rev3 and Untamed. Dart may be able to pick up the pace and do it too though.

Adding my thanks too...

Good updates. Thanks very much.

About 20 minutes ago, Tecnu's FB page announced that they are the champions. Congrats, Kyle et al!

waiting for an open shower here at WISP. unofficial:
1 Tecnu
2 Bushwhacker
3 Untamed 10seconds later (again...unofficial!!!)
the top 3 teams cleared.
4 Dart nuun -1 CP
5 Alpine Shop -2 CPs

Congrats on a great race, Silkychrome!

the score o had 11 CPs. each CP worth 6-14 points, 116 points total. teams got credit for 100 points max, so if you were planning to clear, you had to decide which CPs added up closest to 100 points and the get them. we (Alpine Shop) skipped 2, each worth 8 points. if a team did get 100+ points, they received credit for 10 CPs. if a team got less than 100 points, their total was divided by 10 and rounded down for CP credit. (ex if you got 58 points, then you got 5 CPs)

thx Bash! overall it was an interesting course. huge and incredibly steep climbs (for us) on foot. we were back and forth with CP0 and Odyssey not-masters after "the skip" but separated from Odyssey in the northern bike CPs and CP0 late in the score-o. I think CP0 did not get max points there, but not sure. the final trek was pretty hard, steep and climby and slow veg. getting the farthest out (and final) CP took a huge effort. we knew we had plenty of time for that, but the teams who were cutting it close I do not envy. I loved the WW swim thing at the start. really fun. the biking was fine, a decent mix of roads and double track. as you know at Alpine Shop we are somewhat of nav snobs and the nav here had parts that were tricky and parts that were "go to the top of that them there huge hill" i.e. the entire score-o it seems. great commentary mayer22 and glad we were able to beat our predicted finish :) HUGE congrats to all the teams here, the terrain was no joke and the weather was particularly unfriendly. im still cold.

What a race! Congrats SC, and everyone!

Nice work Alpine Shop.

Thanks for the updates silky. Hard to tell who got to what from here and I didn't have the exact details of the Score O.

Nice race too. How early did you guys finish?

we finished at 1pm. tough call for us for sure!! as Jeff just pointed out to me (nav snob alert), it wasn't a true score-o as in "get as many points as you can in X hours". it was some weird AR version. but we were not bothered, the rules were explained clearly and we knew what to do.

official results http://www.usaranationals.com/results.aspx

I am not sure what a nav snob is. Sounds to me like all orienteers and navigators would be nav snobs. But he was correct that it wasn't a true score-O. I would be interested to see the map for that section.

An hour is a good bit of time but seems to have worked out reasonably well for you guys. There is definitely some "luck" when you have to make that kind of decision with limited knowledge. You never know how the next 24 hours will unfold (weather, terrain, forest density, trails, etc.). That is why I prefer that the top teams clear the course. Then at least the winner is decided without that luck playing into it. Glad the top 3 were able to clear it. Unfortunate that Dart wasn't able to quite make it.

Nav snob = someone who notices that WOC is point to point and does not label rogaine/any order/not fixed order type events as "orienteering format."

Congrats to all teams. Thanks mayer22 for the updates. I guess I must be a nav snob too.

It's hard to believe that a somewhat "legitimate organization" like USARA does NOT think that race jersey are a required piece of gear in AR.

Clearly it is not a lack of budget after many years so it must be their philosophy.

The inevitable result is a bunch of pictures that looks like a group hike on any given weekend.

I won't comment on the coverage/race format as many people did already...

Our sport deserves more than that. My 2 cents for today.

Maps courtesy of silkychrome...let me know if they can't be seen or something...from a fellow navsnob--but I love to race and don't care because I have taken a bearing off an out house on a park map because it had to be done.

Jackson,
USARA said they stopped supplying bibs (what I assume you mean by "race jersey") because it covered the team jersey's. I actually agree with this. What's the point of having sponsors or a team name on your jersey when you just cover it up with a cheap piece of fabric with the race's sponsors on it. That being said not all teams have team jerseys/uniforms but I think the ones that do appreciate the ability to support their sponsor instead of the races sponsor. That may mean less sponsorship for the race but maybe it is better that it go to the team that deserves it than the race which supports all teams. If wearing bibs is better for the sport than I'd be happy to but I can't see the difference it makes except for the RD.

In addition it is one more piece of gear/clothing to worry about especially when races require you to wear it on top. Any time you want to shed or add a layer you have to take it off and put it on. Mind you I do think race bibs are pretty sweet but I can't criticize them for the choice they made and would have to agree it works out better.

Thanks for the maps silky. Looks like AA and BB were pretty good choices for drops. I imagine they were the popular choice for teams attempting to clear this section.

There are other reasons for teams to wear race jerseys / bibs besides just promoting the event name and its sponsors, both of which deserve to be promoted.

Participants are all easily identifiable as racers in the event (e.g. to the general public or a media audience), and it's easy to see which team they belong to (helps volunteers, helps in monitoring for infractions, allows other teams to easily report problems or injuries observed on the course, etc.) Sure, as a racer, I'd be happy not to wear that extra layer but I appreciate the rationale and so does my sponsor.

Thanks for the post race entertainment. Man, we had some huge mess ups on the MTB out to the score O. Even one parallel universe error that had an unrelated college O Course flag near an identical feature we were looking for. WOW! Twilight Zone!! We punched it and moved on and then realized we were way off when we came to a lake! Teamwork prevailed throughout the night with Abby reminding us that anything can happen. (I think she fist said this w/i the first 90 mins of racing.) The RFM along with the other teams having their share of mistakes allowed us to prevail. We skipped AA & BB too.

Regarding the format... I talked to Troy after the race, and I think he understands the issues that can arise with having to make major decisions about skipping CPs so early in a race without fully knowing what was to come in terms of weather, trail conditions... I don't think we will see this again at a USARA Nationals.

That is a good point Bash that I overlooked. I've appreciated that in the past though. Also for one AAS race we wore neon yellow bibs which I liked for the added safety.
I don't think the lack of bibs though means that the race management fails. I've raced many times without bibs and accomplished all of the above. Teams still usually have numbers on their packs and/or bikes in the worst case scenario that you come up to them and they are all unconscious.

There are obviously pros and cons both ways but, to reword my main point above, you can have bibs or not but I don't think an organization should be criticized for opting not to. That is certainly up for debate and I may be missing something but that's my opinion. I appreciate the pros of wearing a bib or not, whatever the case may be.

what's RFM?

Arm bands instead of race bibs? I can't think of a precedence, but I like it when teams are identifiable from a distance.

Relentless
Forward
Motion?

Yah.

That was 1000x easier than THTCAB.

Interesting conversations!! As far as race format is concerned, IMO, I felt that without knowing the whole course, I would not encourage placing potential skips so early in the race. If the whole course is revealed, then it's fair game to place those types of decisions early in a race. In defense of the course layout, I don't think anyone can argue that it wasn't fair; everyone was playing with the same rules and the rules were explained correctly. Again, jmo
With this in mind,after deciding long ago not to, our team made the snap decision to go for the 2 paddle points, basically while climbing back into the boats to head home. Backfired badly.
Score-O points we obtained were LL, KK, JJ, HH, EE, DD

If the whole course is revealed, then it's fair game to place those types of decisions early in a race.

If decisions on whether to drop a CP have to be made before the whole course is revealed, and if a different decision might have been made if the whole course had been known beforehand, then luck and guessing are significant factors in the event. I don't know how much that was the case at USARA but that's cool if it's an element that other people enjoy in their events.

The fact that everyone is operating under the same rules isn't sufficient to make an event a "fair" test of AR skills, performance and experience. I realize that AR itself involves some luck but that's true of most sports, and some AR bad luck can be mitigated based on experience, e.g. knowing how to convert a bike to a single speed or remembering that vegetation is thicker by a creek. Guessing what might be on a future map is not an AR skill - unless racers are given sufficient information to help them plan ahead for that map in a meaningful way, which sometimes happens.

I know a lot of people enjoy this type of racing format, and the top teams tend to rise to the top, as they did at USARA. However, if two teams who finished close together made different guesses because they didn't have all the info yet, their different national championship rankings reflect both luck and AR performance.

I'm not from the U.S. so it doesn't matter what I think but if this were in Canada, I would push for a national champs format where either (a) all CPs are mandatory, and/or (b) the whole course is revealed beforehand.

In my opinion, the top 10 teams or so should be able to clear the course at Nationals. This way, you see how they all did on collecting exactly the same points. There's still plenty of strategy involved in route choice. You can call me biased because we gambled on getting the canoe points and then ran out of time at the end to get more points, and I feel like we came out of this not really knowing how we really stack up. Having to decide to skip early is not ideal because even if you have all the maps, you don't know the condition of the trails, routes, or potential weather effects. I would like to see at least the first half of the course as mandatory.

Also, what's up with people biking out to get 11-14 when the rest of us canoed out there. So what they didn't get to punch 10? They saved a ton of time and bike is not a "lesser means of travel" than foot and canoe. Not cool to me.

you could always go back to retrieve points from an earlier section unless stated otherwise. The teams that did this did not get credit for cp10.

We were explicitly told we couldn't go back for 11-14 on the bike multiple times while we were plotting, so why was it ok to bike out to get them instead of getting out there by paddle?

I plotted in my room so I did not hear this info. I believe once they arrived at the beach they retrieved them on foot.

For those teams that raced - I'm assuming the race director's intent was for the Savage River Score - O to be where a large part of team race strategy was required. Looking at the map and instructions posted here though, it seems like with the scoring system set up the way it was, the only viable option was to skip AA and BB. Am I missing something?

Did anyone use the Monroe Run Trail (old road turned into hiking trail) in the Savage Score-O?...

http://www.ar.attackpoint.org/sessiondata.jsp?sess...

I fully agree with Bash on the implications of having to guess your way early in the race without all the infos.

I would add that it does not make any sense at all. It totally randomizes the outcome of a race and nobody likes that.

@Bill Fletcher- you could skip JJ and get AA/BB which is what we did.

JayXC, what influenced that decision? Seems to be 500 extra feet of climb? Gratuitous, no?

When we originally looked at the map we thought there was more climbing to get to JJ than in reality upon closer inspection. With one climb we could get 2 pts with the AA-BB combo and it was a shorter distance than the out and back to JJ.

We also got AA-BB, then direct route to CC. then all the way out to FF along the road scouting our attackpoints for DD, GG, EE. Skipped JJ and LL.
JJ looked like a straightforward cp, but it was out and back due to the out of bounds area. could be twice the pain if the woods were crappy.

Just looking at it I saw JJ as another potential skip because of the out and back if you didn't think the ridgeline was going to be easy going. Think I probably would have gone with AA and BB though. Joe how was the route to CC. Looks like it could have been tough? Kind of silly to drop LL since it was so easy but no point in wasting your time.

My opinion is similar to Bash but the same as runninghils. I like to see at least 10 or so teams clearing the course (2012 NY pushed the limits but was still good, 6 cleared). I was pretty shocked when I got the message from my team saying the course MIGHT NOT (may or may not) be cleared. To me a definite "No" would have been better. It is much easier to say which points are the hardest and decide to skip them. It won't matter at what point in the race as much because you know you have to skip points anyway. Still luck involved but it plays less of a role.

I am glad the top 3 teams cleared it and were rewarded for going for it. There are too many unknowns even when you have all the maps and you are really just guessing and taking a risk. There is no way you can decide how long that much racing will take you when it is that close to the cutoff.

That being said I am still open to a rogaine format that allows some points to be dropped during the course (preferably later) so that slower teams can still finish officially. Doesn't affect the lead teams but it encourages races of all levels to race and compete in this sport. I think USARA has consistently done a good job of this in years past and hopefully the result of this years race pushes them back to the old format.

JJ had a bit of a little path on top, certainly helped by elephant tracks by our arrival time. Sometimes a little shuffling to pick back up after routing around dead fall.

...a rogaine format that allows some points to be dropped during the course (preferably later) so that slower teams can still finish officially.

I love rogaines that are just rogaines; that is a cool form of racing, e.g. the CNYO Snowgaine, the World Rogaining Champs, the DontGetLost Snowshoe Raid. I prefer rogaine courses that cannot be cleared by anyone because it means every team on the course is forced to solve the same type of problem - how to maximize points in a limited time period using one particular team's physical and navigational abilities, and adjusting strategy during the race based on increased familiarity with the terrain and map, changing physical condition, etc. That is a fun, complex problem to solve. It is much easier to choose the optimum sequence to visit all CPs on a course that is known to be clearable, thus top teams have easier strategy decisions than midpack teams.

Btw this is not just my preference. The International Rules of Rogaining specify: "C2. The course shall be designed so that the winning team is likely to visit most but not all checkpoints."

In AR, a small rogaine component sometimes works - although it usually ruins the race for online spectators and makes the finish line less exciting since results may take awhile to figure out. I prefer time cut-offs with Advanced Course and/or Short Course options where every CP is mandatory on a particular course. This allows faster and slower teams to finish officially, not too far apart.

what Bash said. :)

Short-coursing and OPs are both useful ways to even the race time among the wide range of team speeds. I like the OP because it adds a little more strategy to the mix, plus short-coursed teams will get to participate in more of the race as it was intended by the RD - i.e. by not skipping entire legs.

Trying to follow the race on-line sucks with OPs. I gave up after a few tries and relied on USARA FB posts and mayer22 analysis. But the affected online AR audience is pretty tiny: those of us on this thread and maybe a couple dozen others?

Its great to have the winner cross the line first and be adequately high-fived, but this can be screwed up with short-coursing as well

One other consideration: When we're designing Advanced and Regular courses as organizers, we are also thinking about issues like safety, evacuation potential, etc. If Team NewbieFolks is unable to finish the first couple of legs in a reasonable time, we really don't want them to start a 30 km wilderness trek or 80K mountain bike leg that has limited access for our medics. We want them to skip that entire leg or do a prescribed subset of CPs on that leg. No way do we want them to pick and choose CPs. This is less of an issue for races that take place in civilized areas where help is never far away.

Agreed, it gets tougher to follow the race on the tracker when teams split into two or three different courses but it's still easier than following a race with OPs. The online audience will always be small but it's great marketing if a race is interesting to follow online. We've received a lot of positive feedback from spouses of racers who stayed up all night because we made online coverage a high priority. And happy spouses might let their partners come back next year... :)

another race format option: Thunder Rolls in Illinois uses a point-to-point format with a cutoff...i.e. teams must follow the course in sequential order of CPs. but if they determine that the course is too long to complete, they are allowed to beeline back to the finish and still be counted as official finishers if they make it back before the final cutoff. any CPs they skipped are of course deducted from their total but they still get to avoid DNF. any CPs visited after the first skipped one do not count.

and on a different topic, you know you're a nav snob when you write orienteering symbols on your map instead of words

Good points Bash. Happy spouse - of vital importance.

Short coursing works as well. Like MHtrailvet said it is a similar concept. Since it is for teams that aren't as competitive I also like if they can choose which points suit them best or are safest for them or the most fun for them instead of being forced to miss the one part of the course they were most excited to do. Safety restrictions can be managed with time cutoffs when using only OPs.

Saying it is easier to follow really just depends on the quality of the coverage. In an OP race they could post what teams are currently clearing the course and what teams have dropped CPs. If a race with different course options doesn't post who is on what course it is just as confusing as an OP race. There is a little less to keep track of if there are a few options but maybe you only have one ROGAINE of 5 OPs in a course. Then there are only 5 options.

Maybe what it comes down to is there are a lot of ways to create an AR. For good or bad there are no rules that really require a race to have certain aspects. That adds excitement and intrigue to races but as we mention it can also be stressful and annoying at times. If what your doing is working for you Bash then by all means keep doing it. I have heard great things about your race and would love to make it up there sometime. That being said I have done races with lots of different formats that have been fun, challenging, intriguing, and something I would do again. I have also done races that I was disappointed with. In any case I often try to share my thoughts/concerns with the RD. It's even better when they ask.

We (The Isotopes, who I ran with in Graduate school) used to put on a race that had a hybrid format, which worked well in a 12-18 hour format without people following little orange dots on a screen...

The way we did it: Mandatory TA's, and one mandatory CP per leg. Everything else was rogaine. This way, people could play to their strength (maybe they knew they were awful at running, but better at biking, clear the bike course, and just get the one CP on the trekking leg, etc).

Not really a great format for a chapionship, but great for getting people in the sport. We always had a lot of positive feedback from it, as people were less intimidated once they knew they would officailly finish without having to clear everything in 18 hours.

I'm not advocating this format for a championship race, with all the bells and whistles, but it worked great for a local/regional race.

"6 Alpine Shop
Emily has really made these guys, who are excellent navigators and racers, a force to reckon with. This may be their year for a podium or maybe the steep terrain slow them down a bit."

ahem. actually, weren't they a force to be reckoned w/ before....??? Perhaps the former team members deserve some credit for that.

from my log http://ar.attackpoint.org/viewlog.jsp/user_9015/pe...
"i do want to mention something about the pre-race rankings - mayer22 said that i have made Alpine Shop a force to reckon with. while i agree that we have become more competitive in 2013 and 2014, we wouldn't be anywhere close to that without the previous 10 years of race experience that Jeff and David have with Carrie. most of our success in the last 2 years has been built on the previous 10, of which i had nothing to do with. i consistently lean on these guys' experience and we are really much better together than apart. "

First off notice how I call David and Jeff "excellent navigators and racers." I do realize that it takes an entire team to be competitive. David and Jeff are strong racers, if I didn't think so I wouldn't have predicted such a high finish. I will also say that it seems Carrie is still a part of the team and I am sure she continues to contributes to their success. I don't know any of the other former members as these are the racers I have seen at Nationals over the past several years.

Re: former team member credit
The goal of my rankings wasn't to give credit to all the previous squads for every team I ranked, it was to rank this years teams for this years National Championship. I am sorry if that is what you were expecting. That being said experience was a major factor in my considerations for which Alpine Shop earned a high score (for David, Jeff AND Silky's experience). Another reason they were ranked where they were.

Re: reckoned w/ before
No where in the rankings did I say the team before Silky joined was no good. They were a competitive team before that, especially in the Masters category, but I would not have considered them a threat to win a National Championship in the 5 or so years before 2013 that I have seen them. I did look back to see that they did finish 4th back in 2007 (my first nationals) but I will also note that it was on their home course. The meaning of my comment was that I believe Silky has helped them elevate their game in the past 2 years and become more of a threat to win a race like this. Looking at the results (2013-14 USARA Nats & 2013 CPT Nats) I don't think you could argue that. My comment may have been more focused on Silky but it was simply a quick snippit to make the rankings more interesting and not all the "data" I used for my ranking. If that offended you or someone else I am sorry.

Also note that I encouraged teams to prove me wrong. Anything can happen in AR, as we saw in this race. I am happy for Alpine Shop and their strong finish at this year's race. It was well deserved.